The parish “shop and hop”
One hundred years ago in this country, there were two factors which determined what parish a Catholic would attend: his geographic location and his ethnicity. If you were a recent immigrant, you went to the closest parish that served your people; if not, you just went to the closest non-ethnic parish. But this is not the case today: many Catholics shop around for a parish that suits their needs and then hop to the one that they like the best. Is this allowed? What are we to make of all this?
It should first be noted that lay Catholics are free to go to whatever parish they desire; they are not bound under canon law to attend their territorial parish. However, canon law does stipulate that a pastor of a parish is responsible for all the souls in that parish’s geographic territory, regardless of whether they attend his parish or not (or even if they are Catholic or not). So, in a certain sense, the pastor of your territorial parish is your pastor no matter if you attend his parish or not.
But even if it is allowed, is it a good idea to do the parish “shop and hop”? Should Catholics just attend their territorial parish or should they search around for a “good” parish? Opinions abound. My in-laws, who grew up before Vatican II, would never have dreamed of attending any parish but their “proper” one; they felt that a Catholic was supposed to support their local parish, no matter their personal opinion of it. However, many Catholics feel that it is necessary for their spiritual well-being to attend the “best” parish they can find.
When I first became Catholic, I was in the group that felt that you should attend your territorial parish unless the pastor there was preaching outright heresy. Even if the liturgy was poorly celebrated, the music stunk, and the pastor preached a “be nice” Gospel, a Catholic should support his local parish.
Then I had kids.
As any parent will tell you, having kids changes your entire perspective; you now see everything through their eyes. And I saw a child being raised in a watered-down Catholic Faith and it scared me. After that point, I decided I would attend the best parish within a reasonable distance because I wanted my kids to experience Catholicism and the Mass in a reverent, enthusiastic environment if at all possible.
Of course, one can take the parish “shop and hop” too far and demand perfection from a parish. But a perfect parish does not exist, and frankly, that attitude is one step away from Protestantism. We cannot expect a parish to be EXACTLY what we want, and we must be understanding of the difficulties of being a pastor. Leaving a parish simply because the music isn’t Gregorian Chant or the pastor’s homilies are dry isn’t a valid reason, in my opinion. And furthermore, we should actively work to improve our parishes; too often I hear people complain about their parishes, but they do nothing to help improve them. A parish doesn’t become faithful by magic, it is done by the hard work and prayers of its members. In the end, though, I see no problem with attending the most faithful parish one can in their general geographic area. It is not an ideal solution, but it is an acknowledgment of reality.
Before anyone says it in the comments, I do understand that many Catholics in this country live in a situation in which there are no parishes around them that are strongly faithful to the teachings and practices of the Church. I sympathize with them and know that this situation can be quite a cross. I pray that they unite their sufferings with our Lord for the renewal of the entire Church, including their own parish.
An interesting sidenote: when my family moved to Gaithersburg, we started attending the closest parish to us – St. John Neumann, which was only about 1.5 miles down the road. It is a great parish and we have happily attended it for years. But about two years ago, I discovered that we actually live in the boundaries of another parish! That parish, which is about 4-5 miles away, is also a great parish, but we decided to stay at St. John Neumann, as we had become active members and had found a spiritual home there. But technically, we unknowingly hopped parishes.
Eric,
Thanks for this great reflection! It’s very true what you say about having children; a lot of our choices re: parish attendance have been made with our kids in mind. Fortunately it’s starting to pay off; we were out of town a few weekends ago and when the parish we visited announced “This Little Light of Mine” as the closing song, even my 9-year old gave a look like: “Really?!”
Good points, Eric – but if the catechesis of a parish is lacking, that is a good reason to consider speaking to the Director of Religious Education about your specific concerns (in a charitable mannner, of course), joining the parish faith formation board (if there is one) or volunteering to be a catechist – to work to help improve the system. If that does not work, choosing another parish is an option, but I would let the pastor know why my family was going elsewhere. Personally, I would never leave before attempting to improve the situation by working with the parish in a positive way. People who leave without doing that enable parishes to continue to provide poor catechesis.
Even with children, I tend to toward the opinion that one ought to attend and participate in the life of their local parish. Whether a child is raised with a “watered-down Catholic faith” depends more on their home-life than parish-life. What gives me pause, however, is the possibility of our parish school being closed. If that should happen (absit!), I would have to consider “shop and hop” as an alternative to home or public schooling.
My wife and I have knowingly “parish shopped”, but for a very good reason: she’s highly allergic to incense! So we had to find a parish where they didn’t use incense on a regular basis; fortunately, we found one with a wonderful pastor to boot (though the “choir” leaves something to be desired).
Staying in a “troubled” parish and fighting the good fight is commendable, as Joyce states. But if you have children, is it wise to subject them to poor liturgies, music, catechesis, etc while you try to turn the tide? We have hopped to remove our kids from that battlefield. Yes, the formation of children is the primary duty of the parents, but if your parish life doesn’t support (or worse is in opposition to) what you are doing at home trouble will find you. Our saying is “We must follow orthodoxy”; for our sake and the sake of our kids. It is regrettable, but necessary in our mind.
Little ole me isn’t going to change the church in my neighborhood, Eric. We’ll see what happens when the current pastor has the 12 year shuffle. I love where I go, I’ve gone there for years, and I personally think it offers me the best chance for getting to heaven even though it’s on the other side of town. I don’t have kids, but why does that mean I have to go where “the music isn’t Gregorian Chant or the pastor’s homilies are dry”??? Sorry, this chant and polyphony lover isn’t going to back down on that one.
I understand where you are coming from and being in a parish that doesn’t serve your needs despite working as hard as you can is disheartening. And years ago, I was tempted to search for somewhere else after enduring 14 years of a pastor who ws just “serving out” his time until retirement and determined to maintain the status quo till then. But I remembered praying in front of the same tabernacle for almost 20 years and Jesus reminding me: “I’m still here, Barbara. And this is your place here, with Me.” And so I stayed… and PRAYED!!! I offered up whatever I could for my parish. Today, I have an amazing pastor, who with his assistants are working double-time to create a wonderful, vibrant atmosphere. I need to keep praying for them and for the people here who are tend to be very very uninvolved. If you can remain, pray for your parish. If you must go somewhere else for the sake of your children’s formation, keep praying for your old parish!
“Poor liturgies, music, [and] catechesis” do not equate to heresy. I would not subject myself or my children to a parish that taught heresy (here meaning anything contrary to the teachings of the Church). Poor taste and soft theology do not (as far as I know) make one unorthodox or a heretic. (Granted they may lead one in this direction.)
Jesus is present in the Eucharist – liturgy and music and catechesis be damned. That is the reality I want my children to have first and foremost in their minds and hearts. Everything thing else, to some degree, is a distraction. As a Catholic, I believe unity is important. Segregating ourselves according to our personal tastes is not unity.
Yes, I want my children to appreciate good liturgy, music and catechesis. But there are more important values. That we love one another as Christ loved us. If you can demonstrate to me that “shop and hop” is consistent with this commandment, I will say no more.
I do not see Christ objecting to newer music at Church. There is good old and new music. There is bad old and new music.
We have never shopped and hopped, but have been tempted in the past and know many who do so now. When we lived in a different state the diocese was quite strict on geographical attendance. The diocese would not hesitate to say if you lived here you go to chuch there. To move you needed a letter from the pastor allowing it. We had a parish that was filled with dissension, for some good and soom not so good reasons. We stuck it out even when my wife got spit on in a super market.
When we moved to this state, we asked the diocese where we should worship. They said, take your pick; there are five churchs in your area. We picked one we thought would meet our needs, and when we walked into the empty church we could feel that the Holy Spirit was in residance there. We have not moved even though a pastoraial change caused many to do so. We love our Church and our parish.
If going to a certain parish required that I sit my kids down and give a proper explanation of whatever silliness the priest or deacon said in his homily or explain what proper liturgical practice should be or have to explain that the hymns used at Mass were expounding Protestant theology or have to supplement or correct the religious ed class teaching, I would leave.
I’ve tried the stick it out and try to fix things approach and have found that unless the pastor backs you up you are wasting your time.
Here is our story. My husband and I were adamantly opposed to parish shopping and took our children to our local parish through thick and thin. As the kids reached middle school we had an increasing desire to have them experience more reverent and meaningful services, especially for Good Friday and Easter. Our local services were just dreadful. We found what we were seeking at the local Cathedral and never left. Here is my favorite part, my eighth-grade son who was a bit of a rebel, asked me to contact the parish and sign him up to serve mass at the local Cathedral. As a consequence, he served all the way through high school which he would not have done at our old parish.
Recently our son accepted the Lord’s call to become a priest after a rocky period where he left the church and went out on his own for a couple of years. We look back on the decision to leave our old parish and know now that God had a plan for us that we could never have imagined and our son’s experience at our new parish was part of that. His formation at the Cathedral was a huge blessing for him. God bless all of you who are faithful to your local parish, especially if that is God’s call for you. Don’t judge some of us who “bail” too harshly though, you never know what God might be doing, I certainly didn’t.
crazylikeknoxes,
You make my point with your admission that “Poor taste and soft theology…may lead one in this (heretical) direction.” Of course, any Mass that is licit and valid brings Our Savior to us in the Eucharist but these other things are never mere distraction, at any level. The liturgy is the ‘packaging’ in which is wrapped the most sublime gift that can be given. The music and preaching, the church’s architecture, are all powerful forms of catechesis which speak loudly about our faith, especially to young children. In leaving one parish for another, more ‘traditional’ parish, my family did not stop loving one congregation for another. We would not, however, stay and subject ourselves or our kids to soft theology, bad music, and poor catechesis of all types. For us, finding a parish has never been about personal tastes but about following orthodoxy/tradition.
Thanks,Eric. St. Benedict ordered his monks to ‘stay put’, not to jump around from abbey to abbey. The liturgically and doctrinally hideous parish may be just the cross Christ is asking you to bear. I couldn’t take it anymore. So, at the first opportunity, I moved to the precinct of a more faithful parish. That, too, was a kind of ‘cross’. I have had to do without geographic conveniences I was accustomed to. Fewer square feet, frequently life-threatening plumbing, etc. But I no longer leave Church angry, horrified, or sad. My home will never make the cover of House Beautiful. But My Lord is housed in a beautiful home and is revered and lauded as He deserves. Such a deal!
My wife and I drive 30 miles to Church, one way, and back home another 30 miles. This was because we had a terrible time finding a Church which actually embraced Catholicism and tradition. We do not have any regrets, even during the harsh winter when we have to leave the house an hour and a half early.
It is worth the cross for us. What is better is that the local parish found out, and because they’re losing parishners hand over fist, they are beginning to make changes. So, sticking around may have caused them to maintain the status quo for they still get their money. But by leaving, they were financially bled dry, and made changes as a result.
God loves the free market.
Bruce: There is a reason our Church is not a democracy, or a free market economy. Don’t you think that sword can cut both ways?
I appreciate your comments, Eric. We’ve had to change parishes twice. The first time the whole focus of our parish was social justice. With the pastor a practicing homosexual, we felt we had no choice. The second time in another state, the parish was so gigantic, over 20,000 parishoners, there was no place for us and no need for us at all. I even volunteered in the office in person and am bilingual, but no one ever took us up on the offer. Our new parish is a little smaller and we can volunteer as well as participate. It’s not perfect, but I do believe we can pray for the new parish.
I agree on many points in your article, except you forgot that 100 years ago we did not have Vatican 2. In some of my past experiences in witnessing many liturgical abuses and absolute indifference of the parishioners,(and I could relate some horror stories to you here), there is one way to solve what should never be a problem in the first place: As soon as ALL parishes begin to offer the Traditional Latin Mass, a great deal of the problems will end. I believe in my heart of hearts this day is arriving. It just takes time. It had to happen.
I understand completely. When I decided to convert, I called the closest parish to where I lived which was about 5 miles away. Since then a friend of mine who is a member of my parish but attends Mass with her mom at a different parish. However, her mother is always complaining how boring the paarish priest is that he just reads his homily, his sermons are dry, etc., etc. Me being the newly to Catholism suggest she come to Mass with us just thought I had suggest the the biggest sacrilageously sin of all time. She is pre Vatican II. But she keeps on saying how lucky I am because I live near a great parish community. Since I have never attended Mass out side of my parish I have nothing to base my perceptions on. I do know people from my parish that have attended different parishes around the area, so I was always under the impression that eventhough, I was confirmed in one parish I could be a member of any parish I chose. Not that I am unhappy with my community. However, I do like having the opportunity to attend whereever and whenever I so choose, rather than be “assigned” a parish just on geography.
Unfortunately, in many of the parishes in my area, the reasons why things are the way they are because the same camp of volunteers/parishioners have “served” in the parish for decades. From my experience, stepping up to change the way things are often gets you alienated or some other undesired result. I’ve seen people blocked out of ministries or ignored because of “parish politics”.
What is the best thing to do in this situation?
Most Sunday’s we attend the same wonderful, reverent parish. BUT… I can’t get my act together by 8:00 am each day so I go to another parish for daily Mass at 9:15, except they don’t have one on Mondays, so, if I have time I go downtown to the Cathedral’s 12:15 Mass and sometimes on Friday’s, too, or if I am meeting someone for lunch I go there for Mass first. I go to all three and sometimes a few others for “formation” classes of a great variety if they seem interesting. Therefore, I guess I am not really a parishioner but more of a Diocisaner(?). Although, my money goes to the sunday parish but I do contribute to our Bishop’s Appeal…
I feel at home in all Catholic churches and i love to go to other parishes when I am on vacation!
I recently left my parish because one of the priests (not the pastor) told me he wanted no part in my life and began avoiding me after after Mass or any occasion in which the was a community gathering. He was also my spiritual director so the act of rejection hurt even more. Out of respect for him and for my own healing I left the parish, but I miss my home parish very much because I have been trying for years to become a part of the “family” only to have it end like this. Would anyone care to share their opinion on this because I am torn between returning to my parish in the future or simply moving on and never looking back.
AR,
I truly can relate to what your feelings are in that kind of situation. A pastor or priest in in an incredibly responsible position (I don’t know how they find time to do it all sometimes) so one must understand they have to hold a certain distance and give time each parishioner as they can. Weigh the seriousness of your problem against those who really have problems and you understand how they think. I know how you feel, but remember a priest had many duties in many places, and not take things too personally.
In the situation I encountered, it was more like the parishioners acted differently than I would expect any parishioners in a Catholic Church to act. This happens and it really is very normal. I have been in situations where I actually asked the person next to me if I was in a Catholic Church. You can imagine the look I received and the possible report that must have been made to the pastor. Before I even enter a new parish, I always have an initial interview with the pastor himself, and what they state during that interview (in regards to my very well tailored, but direct questions) says a great deal about the parish itself. I am blessed to be able to attend a traditional mass now, and in a parish that promotes it greatly. Many are there for the very same reasons I have stated in an earlier post and here. But I must realize that if it were not available, I would be obligated to attend a NO Mass and be content. It is not the form that is so much the thing, but the attitudes in which the priest or parishioners tend to take towards the Holy Eucharist itself that raise red flags for me.
Sadly, some do believe they are exclusive clubs of some sort and that is sad. Most of that is just due to human nature and poor application of catechism. Sometimes it is just bad habits that were never corrected–some may not even realize what they are doing is wrong. But, let’s consider why we assist at the Sacrifice of Holy Mass in the first place. It is not to be there to be accepted by others, to make friends or to shine in the choir. It is there to worship God. We have plenty of time to get to know them in the various social functions or after Mass, if that is the case. Granted, if we are not comfortable with the situation, we can go elsewhere, and you will often find many who do this, have the same story as you do.
The only truly valid reason for not attending any particular parish must be if one has questions of the liturgical practices and their validity. This can only be ascertained by an educated Catholic, but I do find most parishes are generally fine. There is a great change going on today, but as long as you have some priests who believe they are the ones who can make the rules, instead of the bishop or even the pope himself, then one is going to see trouble down the line somewhere.
I urge you not to consider just “giving up” the Church in general–many do because they expect too much out of a pastor who may not be doing what you think he should. Find another parish and be selective in what is acceptable. Common sense plays a great role in knowing if a parish is doing right or doing their own thing. We need to be watchful, but not too critical. Report serious problems to the bishop, if there are any you feel need addressed. Some do not have choices, and will offer the suffering to Christ, which is better than abandoning Him for ourselves. We must bear the cross the best we can.
I can see where being a parish “dilettante” who hops all the time can keep one from forming relationships and making true roots in a home parish, especially if one knows he or she will live in an area for many years or the rest of life. But spending six months or a year just visiting some of the surrounding churches in your diocese can be a wonderful way to learn about and appreciate the variations on how things are done. And if you find yourself far from your home parish but can make Mass at a parish near where you’re doing things, you’ll be less bashful about stopping in for your Sabbath. And nothing like going around to cure the “grass is greener” feeling. You might pick up bulletins that feature programs you might think would work back home. I did it alone, but can also see value for parents of teens or young adults if they are fading from church because “there’s only old people who go to church” or “there’s nothing to do” – once they’re on their own they can also search for the church that keeps them in instead of going lax because their one parish felt stunted. Some parishes are Sunday Mass and lock it up for a week,” some tie into their city and have thrift stores and soup kitchens. If someone is dissatisfied with their parish, they need to know the Church, their diocese even, isn’t just one parish.
Under Benedict XVI’s pontificate, everything’s changed. Not only has Summorum Pontificum been made the Tridentine mass generally available, but soon there will be a (more) generally available Anglican use of the Roman rite. Although the latter have personal parishes, it’s clear not everyone who might want to attend can expect to join them.
So it seems to me like the Pope doesn’t really expect people to normally attend their local parish if they don’t like its liturgy…
I believe God invented cars, horses, mules, two feet – for a reason. Go to a Church where the priest speaks of God to you and where the priest speaks of you to God. Seek it and you will find it. I have no problem with going to a church with such a priest – no matter the distance and no matter how many churches you pass by.
So what is your definition of being watered down Catholicism?
crazylikeknoxes at 11:07am: Jesus is present in the Eucharist – liturgy and music and catechesis be damned. That is the reality I want my children to have first and foremost in their minds and hearts.
You’re implying (fallaciously) that having the reality of Jesus present in the Eucharist foremost in one’s mind is NOT inextricably bound up with the way in which one performs the activity of encountering him.
Liturgy and music and catechesis are the way in which a parish encounters Jesus present in the Eucharist. If everyone is standing around saying and singing according to how they feel at the moment (or how Marty Haugen felt for a moment in the 70s), then your children will most certainly NOT have that reality first and foremost in their minds and hearts.
Your children will have, first and foremost in their hearts, the idea that what they feel at the moment and how their neighbor feels at the moment are the most important ways to “encounter Jesus”.
“You’re implying (fallaciously) that having the reality of Jesus present in the Eucharist foremost in one’s mind is NOT inextricably bound up with the way in which one performs the activity of encountering him.”
I remember serving Mass back in the 1950s and 1960s. An early weekday Mass took, at most, 20 minutes. We repeated Latin phrases, but did not read, write, or speak Latin.
I have no problem listening to or singing Gregorian Chants, other music in hymnals written from about 1300 to the mid-1900s, or music written since Vatican II. The Mass means the same to me, as it should mean to all. I prefer more recent music. Others prefer older music. I prefer English. Others might prefer something else. The Mass is not more sacred one way or the other. When I go to Mass, and I have been to Mass with many types of music, I see most people acting appropriately. Some people cannot accept that others can like something different and still realize the sacredness of the liturgy.
“Some people cannot accept that others can like something different and still realize the sacredness of the liturgy.”
Yep. And they get really uncomfortable when Latin is allowed. And they make fallacious arguments like, “The presence of Jesus in the Eucharist is really what matters most.” (fallacious because it could also have been used against changing the liturgy in the first place from Latin to English, reverent to make-your-own, etc.)
I am not advocating a specific kind of liturgy. I am advocating a source of authority in liturgy. Namely, the apostles, apostolic tradition, and ultimately the hierarchy. Not the design-your-own-liturgy lay parish council.
Incidentally, this is the reason why the “get involved!” argument doesn’t work. The parish is already run by people like Bill, here, who feel threatened by forms of worship that are not currently in play, and do their damndest to stop their carefully-constructed-in-my-own-image Mass from being changed to a Mass that is catholic–universal–that would be recognized by any Catholic anywhere as Catholic.
As it is, my-very-own-Mass is indistinguishable in most parishes of the Archdiocese of Washington, D.C. from the “service” held at the National Cathedral, “a place of prayer for people of all faiths and beliefs.”
And the saccharine, seemingly benign comments like the ones you’ve made, Bill, are (whether you realize it or not and whether you admit it or not) going to keep it that way.
J. What I was implying (or rather, trying to say) is that a preoccupation with music, liturgical style, or the homily can distract one from what I consider the essential purpose of the liturgy: worshipping God by participation in the perfect sacrifice of his Son. Sure music and liturgy influence this but they are secondary.
It is what is in your heart and mind, rather than what is on your lips, that renders a sacrifice more acceptable. I would rather hear Haugen sung by someone with a humble and contrite heart rather than Palestrina sung by someone who felt superior merely because they were not singing Haugen.
Let me leave you with this thought. Lex credendi lex orandi. Which comes first, belief or liturgy? I am of the opinion that if we believe rightly, then we will worship rightly. I.e., that worship is a function of belief. Others, perhaps a majority, see it the other way. I.e. worship rightly and your beliefs will fall into line. In fact, I know they influence each other. Still, I think belief (the Real Presence) is more important than the details of liturgy. That is what I want my children, not just to be aware of, but to live.
Bill,
One of the main points many of us have raised here is that, for the sake of our children, we have moved to more traditional parishes. For them, the visual difference between Jesus seated on His throne in an ornate castle (a high altar) and a nondiscript ‘box’ placed on a table (the tabernacle in far too many parishes) means a great deal. There is a real difference in the theology of ‘O Sacrament Most Holy’ versus that of ‘Take and Eat’. The mystery which the Latin and chant and ‘silent’ prayers said by the priest create, and which their mother and I explain, mirrors the mysteries of our holy religion. You may be able to find the sacredness of a banal liturgical experience, but our kids cannot. Their formation is our primary concern, one of the things on which my wife and I will be judged. This is why our conscience has moved many of us to ‘hopped’.
Put more succinctly, why is it that the people who say, “Mass means the same to me whatever the accidental form of the liturgy looks like,” are always so insistent on keeping the accidental form that they have created rather than inherited?
crazylikeknoxes,
If you really believed what you were saying about lex credendi lex orandi, then you would not be so averse to a particular form of liturgy like Palestrina.
Nobody is saying that one accidental form of liturgy is inherently better than another AS SUCH. But one form of liturgy is designed by the apostles, apostolic tradition, and ultimately the hierarchy. Another form of liturgy is that designed by the self, in the image of the self.
Palestrina did not write for himself. He lived in a time when it was easy to see the subordinate position he was in vis-a-vis liturgy.
The editors who put hymns from the book of Protestant Worship into the Gather hymnal clearly do not.
crazylikeknoxes,
If you really believed that it was secondary, you would not feel threatened by the notion of letting the hierarchy tell you what is appropriate for liturgy (e.g., the Pope not allowing guitars in Masses when he is present).
Or our Holy Father’s edict that all receiving Holy Communion from him do so kneeling and on the tongue, which is in line with tradition.
J. For the record, I read Latin and love it dearly. I have absolutely nothing against the traditional Latin mass. I use some of its prayers (in English) for our family’s evening prayer. But my local parish uses the Novus Ordo. I do not think they are heretics. I do not think they love the Lord less for doing so. I do not believe imposing a Latin mass on them would bring them any closer to Jesus. But if Pope Benedict or some future pope should think otherwise, you can count me in.
My children, in their 20s, seem to appreciate the Church and the Mass. (My wife apparently did a good job with them!)
I have seen many web sites with many comments from “Trads” indicating the superiority of the Latin Mass. Many apparently want the Latin Mass only.
I am intrigued by recent converts who want Latin only. The Church has the right idea, but let us go back to the liturgy of 50 years ago? I do not understand why they converted.
crazylikeknoxes,
I’m glad you like the Novus Ordo. Did you know that “Novus Ordo” and “Latin Mass” are not mutually exclusive categories?
Do you really think I believe that people who do not pray in Latin “love the Lord less for doing so”, or rather that, AS I CLEARLY SAID, people who redesign Mass in their own image instead of the way that is in continuity with the patrimony of thousands of years, love the Lord less for doing so?
Do you really think that merely *allowing* Latin (which was explicitly given “pride of place” by the same documents which permitted vernacular-language Masses is the same as “imposing it”?
Or is it that you feel like I am attacking worship in English as such? I don’t mean to do so. I do think it’s important for people to understand what they’re saying when they pray, but I also think that it’s important for people NOT to understand what they’re saying when they pray sometimes. We would be better off on the hither side of the Adriatic if we took the cue from our Eastern brothers and embraced apophaticism (and the humility that comes with admitting that one doesn’t always understand perfectly).
Dear Bill,
I’m trying to find the post on this page where someone is insisting that parishes only offer the Tridentine Mass (which you call the “Latin” Mass–misleadingly).
Peter: You write about being able to find sacredness in banal liturgical experience. I find sacredness in participating in liturgical experience, regardless of its banality or magnificence. I don’t want my children’s experience of the divine to be limited to a particular mode of worship. They need to meet Jesus where (and wherever) they are.
In a sense (and don’t take offense, only in a sense) your attitude reminds of protestant churches that compete with each other in an effort to provide the most satisfying or inspiring worship services. Ultimately, style is elevated over substance.
[By the way, my wife is a former southern Baptist. After her first visit to a Mass (Novus Ordo), she said it felt like a cult. I know according to the traditional yardstick the Novus Order is watery, but to an outsider it is still something different. She did join the cult.]
crazylikeknoxes,
What if your children find themselves in, say, an Adult Video store? Or a bar on the strip at Panama Beach? Or perhaps the floor of the United States Senate?
Are these all appropriate places to celebrate the Eucharist?
p.s. I have actually attended a Mass that was celebrated on the patio of a bar at a beach, with a giant inflatable alligator hanging over the “altar”, which was the hostess stand, and worshippers sitting around at umbrella-tables. I’m not just making up an extreme circumstance.
“I’m trying to find the post on this page where someone is insisting that parishes only offer the Tridentine Mass (which you call the “Latin” Mass–misleadingly).”
I did not say it was at this site at this time. You can easily find such a site.
“I did not say it was at this site at this time. You can easily find such a site.”
You can find someone saying anything you want on the internet. Let’s try to have a dialogue in which we address what each other says, no?
My position is that parishes in my Diocese (Washington, D.C.) usually have liturgies which are unique to the lay members who have designed or altered them according to their own tastes, and that this is an inappropriate way to foster an attitude of reverence in our encounter of Christ in the Eucharist, because it sends the message, not that liturgy isn’t the most important thing (which is actually true), but that the accidental form of liturgy can and should be imaginatively created by the individual (which is contrary to the spirit of catholic Christianity).
The sad thing is I think we probably agree about this, but I’m 27 with two young children and you’re old enough to remember a liturgy that was repulsive, and you equate “Latin Mass” with that experience (I may be wrong with what I impute to you; if I am, I am sorry).
I am a member of a generation that feels cheated because we are starting from a point beyond the purging which the Church may have needed. We don’t have the pre-conciliar liturgical abuses in our living memory. The *current* liturgical abuses are lack-of-reverence abuses, not lack-of-sincerity.
We have plenty of sincerity.
We are starved for reverence.
J. My answer would have to be “no” to all of those places. (And I hope that is what you expected.) When I said “mode of worship” I did mean Catholic mode (whether Tridentine, Novus Ordo, Maronite, etc.) and when I said “where they are” I was thinking about whatever parish they might find themselves (the subject of the original post).
Don’t get me too wrong. We need more reverence in our worship. And I’m sure there is more reverence in a traditional Latin mass inasmuch they are celebrated by intentional communities of persons perceiving a lack of reverence in their local parish. But I don’t not believe that parish shopping is the way to increase reverence for a community or the Church as a whole, although it may have that effect for the individual.
crazylikeknoxes,
I think you’re right about that. (If my editing of what you wrote is correct)
“But I [do not] believe that parish shopping is the way to increase reverence for a community or the Church as a whole, although it may have that effect for the individual.”
Bill: J is correct; no one is advocating Tridentine Masses only. To do so would repeat the error of 1969 with fallout that would be as devistating to the faith.
crazylikeknoxes: I am not sure how you can equate a desire for a return to tradition in liturgy, music, theology, architecture with a protestant-like mentallity. I desire, for myself and my family, the Mass of Augustine, Francis of Assisi, Padre Pio, and The Little Flower. My parish priest desires this as well, but offers 9 Novus Order Masses and 2 Tridentine Masses each week. And ‘banal’ is not my word…
“What happened after the Council was something else entirely: in the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it – as in a manufacturing process – with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product.”–Cardinal Ratzinger’s Preface to the book The Reform of the Roman Liturgy by Mgr. Klaus Gamber
J. Thanks for the edit. I think one of the positive things about Summorum Pontificum is that, by recognizing a “right” to have the Tridentine mass celebrated locally, the necessity or impetus toward parish shopping is lessened. And I do wish there was “stable group of faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition” in my parish, but there is not.
Peter. I do agree that the period after the Council saw a disruption in the organic development of tradition. Like you (I presume), we must do what we can to heal it. And banal or not, Pope Benedict still celebrates it.
Bill. All I can think to say is thanks for your imput.
I’m a dad, and I am of the opinion that aside from heresy being preached or severe liturgical abuses, we should go to the parish closest to us. Parents are the primary chatechists, their souls depend upon it.
….heresy being preached or severe liturgical abuses,….
it should be “and/or” although you most frequently find them together. I once went to confession at a cathedral here in the southeast and it was held (weekly) in a janitors closet with no dividers, sitting on folding chairs. I would have continued there but there were better options fortunately. I found a spiritual home elsewhere and my car won’t let me go near the cathedral.
15 years ago my wife and I hopped parishes, but only after many years of attending our territotial one and TRYING to participate in apostolate to help improve the teaching, etc. Finally after being told flat out that our services were not needed we hopped. The pastor of the new parish welcomed us with open arms and immediately asked us to run the catechetical program and be on the parish council. He was so happy to welcome an orthodox younger couple into parish life. Our biggest concern has been NEITHER parish-hopping or parish-staying. The phenomenon in our urban archdiocese (with a parish every few miles) has been getting orthodox families to belong to ANY parish. By far the custom for many years has been “parish take-out” or “parish drive-thru”, i.e., taking from a parish whatever is needed for sacramental or spiritual life but never belonging or giving by participating. This has been most especially the case with the many homeschooling families in our region who find imperfection in even the better Catholic parishes and use that as a reason to not register.
Dear Dante,
I think, having done it myself, that the homeschooling families failing to register phenomenon is partly laziness, partly the deep lack of confidence in the lay administration (which exercises more authority in, e.g., catechesis and liturgy) combined with the phenomenon you mentioned: being told that your services are not welcome.
But if we can overcome our laziness, I think with time we can overcome our reluctance. How do we *want* to? Well, as soon as we see that our parish looks anything like the Christianity we read about in the New Testament, the Fathers, the Didache, the living, continuous, apostolic tradition, the universal Church–a Church that can be universal.
We need to see that people care more about what’s in the tabernacle than talking points we could as easily get from mainstream mass media.
We need to see that people care more about the dignity of the person than the comforts offered by pro-abortion politicians;
that they care more about suffering and dying for Christ’s sake, and living the whole Gospel–not just the part about benignity and forgiveness–the whole Gospel–the sword of Matthew 10, and the division of Luke 12.
There is a difference between letting the wheat of Matthew 13 grow with the tares and trying to convince the wheat that it’s being uptight and exclusive for maintaining that tares are still bad.
Eric,
I’m in the same boat as you. When we decided to return to the Catholic Church I said, “Well, there’s one about a mile away,” and we started to go — and love it. But subsequently we too found out that geographically we are actually in another parish. That’s the hazard of living in a heavily populated area, I guess.
I actually drove by the other day just to see the church we “supposed” to go to. The church we do go to is closer, so I’m not feeling too guilty.
I was baptized Catholic before I was a month old and have practiced the Catholic faith all my life, faithfully. Now I am a sextagenerian. My rule of thumb is to go to the parish within which I reside. What happens over time is that one develops relationships inside and outside of Mass. Neighbors are members of the same parish. One’s children play with other children from the parish. Pastors come and pastors go. Musicians also come and go. R.E. directors come and go. But, friends and neighbors generally stay.
One time, when our daughter was young, we went to a parish which was outside the official geographical boundaries of our residence. But, it was actually closer to our home! We chose it also because of safety: when our daughter walked to Catholic school she would not have to cross streets with high density traffic.
[...] Auto Draft By Jason Gennaro on July 31st, 2010 | Category: Faith & Spirituality, Family Life, Parenting A few days ago, Eric Sammons at The Divine Life wrote a post about the parish “shop and hop”. (Read it all here: http://ericsammons.com/blog/2010/07/28/the-parish-shop-and-hop/) [...]
Pingback by Parish Shop and Hop? « Catholic Dads — July 31, 2010 @ 1:20 pmJF Archer, I hope you get to read this. Thanks for your comment, I know I should be more understanding of the great responsibilities of a priest but I still know that what was done was not appropriate. But I must admit that my parish is very much devoted to the Christ in the Blessed Sacrament and for the most part I don’t have to be concerned heretical teachings being taught during Mass – and that is what truly matters. God bless…
It still will take a while for me to return to my home parish so please keep me in your prayers because I do miss it but the wound is still sensitive.
IIRC, in my pre Vat2 childhood, there was no reason not to belong to the closest parish: you got the same thing at all of them. Only after the the parishes began to change around 1967 or so did people start to ‘shop.’
[...] The parish “shop and hop” – Every Catholic lives their faith through their local parish, so discussing when it is legitimate to “parish shop” is sure to generate comments. [...]
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