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	<title>Comments on: Is John the Baptist greater than Mary?</title>
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	<link>http://ericsammons.com/blog/2010/03/08/is-john-the-baptist-greater-than-mary/</link>
	<description>Musings about the Catholic Faith</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 19:14:55 -0600</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Wild Rock Honey</title>
		<link>http://ericsammons.com/blog/2010/03/08/is-john-the-baptist-greater-than-mary/comment-page-1/#comment-11428</link>
		<dc:creator>Wild Rock Honey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 May 2010 20:29:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Gospel of Mark 1:1-13...&lt;/strong&gt;

I found your entry interesting thus I&#039;ve added a Trackback to it on my weblog :)...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Gospel of Mark 1:1-13&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>I found your entry interesting thus I&#8217;ve added a Trackback to it on my weblog <img src='http://ericsammons.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: SECRET ESSENCE -ANCIENT MYSTERY &#124; American News Magazine</title>
		<link>http://ericsammons.com/blog/2010/03/08/is-john-the-baptist-greater-than-mary/comment-page-1/#comment-11408</link>
		<dc:creator>SECRET ESSENCE -ANCIENT MYSTERY &#124; American News Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 May 2010 22:42:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ericsammons.com/blog/?p=7501#comment-11408</guid>
		<description>[...] Is John the Baptist greater than Mary? (ericsammons.com) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Is John the Baptist greater than Mary? (ericsammons.com) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://ericsammons.com/blog/2010/03/08/is-john-the-baptist-greater-than-mary/comment-page-1/#comment-8987</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:29:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ericsammons.com/blog/?p=7501#comment-8987</guid>
		<description>On the point of the translation of Galation 4:4 as to whether it should be &quot;born of a woman &quot; or &quot;made of a woman&quot; there is extensive discussion of that point in the New Advent Catholic Encylopedia. This is quoted below.

As to the Epistles, the only direct reference to Mary is found in Galatians 4:4: &quot;But when the fulness of time was come, God sent his Son, made of a woman, made under the law&quot;. Some Greek and Latin  manuscripts, followed by several Fathers, read gennomenon ek gynaikos instead of genomenon ek gynaikos, &quot;born of a woman&quot; instead of &quot;made of a woman&quot;. But this variant reading cannot be accepted. For

    * gennomenon is the present participle, and must be rendered, &quot;being born of a woman&quot;, so that it does not fit into the context. [104]
    * though the Latin variant rendering &quot;natum&quot; is the perfect participle, and does not imply the inconveniences of its Greek original, St. Bede [105] rejects it, on account of its less appropriate sense.
    * In Romans 1:3, which is to a certain extent a parallel of Galatians 4:4, St. Paul writes genomenos ek stermatos Daveid kata sarka, i.e. &quot;made of the seed of David, according to the flesh&quot;.
    * Tertullian [106] points out that the word &quot;made&quot; implies more than the word &quot;born&quot;; for it calls to mind the &quot;Word made flesh&quot;, and establishes the reality of the flesh made of the Virgin. 

Furthermore, the Apostle employs the word &quot;woman&quot; in the phrase under consideration, because he wishes to indicate merely the sex, without any ulterior connotation. In reality, however, the idea of a man made of a woman alone, suggests the virginal conception of the Son of God. St. Paul seems to emphasize the true idea of the Incarnation of the Word; a true understanding of this mystery safeguards both the Divinity and the real humanity of Jesus Christ. [107]

The Apostle St. John never uses the name Mary when speaking of Our Blessed Lady; he always refers to her as Mother of Jesus (John 2:1-3; 19:25-26). In his last hour, Jesus had established the relation of mother and son between Mary and John, and a child does not usually address his mother by her first name. 
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the point of the translation of Galation 4:4 as to whether it should be &#8220;born of a woman &#8221; or &#8220;made of a woman&#8221; there is extensive discussion of that point in the New Advent Catholic Encylopedia. This is quoted below.</p>
<p>As to the Epistles, the only direct reference to Mary is found in Galatians 4:4: &#8220;But when the fulness of time was come, God sent his Son, made of a woman, made under the law&#8221;. Some Greek and Latin  manuscripts, followed by several Fathers, read gennomenon ek gynaikos instead of genomenon ek gynaikos, &#8220;born of a woman&#8221; instead of &#8220;made of a woman&#8221;. But this variant reading cannot be accepted. For</p>
<p>    * gennomenon is the present participle, and must be rendered, &#8220;being born of a woman&#8221;, so that it does not fit into the context. [104]<br />
    * though the Latin variant rendering &#8220;natum&#8221; is the perfect participle, and does not imply the inconveniences of its Greek original, St. Bede [105] rejects it, on account of its less appropriate sense.<br />
    * In Romans 1:3, which is to a certain extent a parallel of Galatians 4:4, St. Paul writes genomenos ek stermatos Daveid kata sarka, i.e. &#8220;made of the seed of David, according to the flesh&#8221;.<br />
    * Tertullian [106] points out that the word &#8220;made&#8221; implies more than the word &#8220;born&#8221;; for it calls to mind the &#8220;Word made flesh&#8221;, and establishes the reality of the flesh made of the Virgin. </p>
<p>Furthermore, the Apostle employs the word &#8220;woman&#8221; in the phrase under consideration, because he wishes to indicate merely the sex, without any ulterior connotation. In reality, however, the idea of a man made of a woman alone, suggests the virginal conception of the Son of God. St. Paul seems to emphasize the true idea of the Incarnation of the Word; a true understanding of this mystery safeguards both the Divinity and the real humanity of Jesus Christ. [107]</p>
<p>The Apostle St. John never uses the name Mary when speaking of Our Blessed Lady; he always refers to her as Mother of Jesus (John 2:1-3; 19:25-26). In his last hour, Jesus had established the relation of mother and son between Mary and John, and a child does not usually address his mother by her first name.<br />
<a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Peregrinus</title>
		<link>http://ericsammons.com/blog/2010/03/08/is-john-the-baptist-greater-than-mary/comment-page-1/#comment-8798</link>
		<dc:creator>Peregrinus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 14:29:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ericsammons.com/blog/?p=7501#comment-8798</guid>
		<description>Well put, Bain. I am almost certainly giving a greater significance to Jesus’ words than they actually possess to allow for a more certain explanation of the verse. My hypothesis is, however, unnecessary, since the explanation we have without it is sufficient. It must, moreover, remain only an hypothesis without recourse to the original words themselves.

You understand correctly my statement concerning Mary’s conception. The sexual physiology, as you put it, was ordinary; but the participation of God when infusing the soul was unique. This latter act, and not the former, was, as Holweck observes in his article on the matter in &lt;i&gt;The Catholic Encyclopedia&lt;/i&gt;, truly the conception of Mary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well put, Bain. I am almost certainly giving a greater significance to Jesus’ words than they actually possess to allow for a more certain explanation of the verse. My hypothesis is, however, unnecessary, since the explanation we have without it is sufficient. It must, moreover, remain only an hypothesis without recourse to the original words themselves.</p>
<p>You understand correctly my statement concerning Mary’s conception. The sexual physiology, as you put it, was ordinary; but the participation of God when infusing the soul was unique. This latter act, and not the former, was, as Holweck observes in his article on the matter in <i>The Catholic Encyclopedia</i>, truly the conception of Mary.</p>
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		<title>By: bain</title>
		<link>http://ericsammons.com/blog/2010/03/08/is-john-the-baptist-greater-than-mary/comment-page-1/#comment-8792</link>
		<dc:creator>bain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 09:50:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ericsammons.com/blog/?p=7501#comment-8792</guid>
		<description>As has now been noted above, &quot;man born of woman&quot; is a Semitism meaning nothing more or less than &quot;mortal&quot;/ &quot;human&quot;: compare Job 14:1.  In the Vulgate, the phrase in Job is &quot;homo natus de muliere&quot; (LXX &quot;brotos gennetos gunaikos&quot;).  Nothing turns on the grammatical construction in the Greek or in the Latin (whether simple genitive, or a prepositional phrase).  

Compare what the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed asserts of Our Lord: &quot;ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula . .  genitum non factum&quot;.  And in the Apostles&#039; Creed we have &quot;natus ex Maria vergine&quot;.  Our Lord, born of the Father before all time (natus/ genitus/ gennetos) was, in His passible existence, &quot;born of a woman&quot; and was mortal - like us in all things except sin.

Speculation that some subtlety resides in St. Matthew&#039;s use of the word &quot;gennetos&quot; (Latin equivalent, &quot;natus&quot;) only distracts from the focus of the passage in Mt.11:7-19 which is a straightforward rebuke of contemporary popular attitudes to John the Baptist and to Our Lord Himself.  The passage begins with the words &quot;Jesus began to speak to the crowds about John . . .&quot; (Mt.11:7).  It is highly unlikely that any technical use of terms is involved here.

As for Our Lady, Peregrinus cannot have intended to say that her conception was  UNlike any other - in particular in &quot;how it came about&quot; (if, by that, is meant the sexual physiology). She was conceived and born in the order of nature - although conceived without the stain of original sin. What was different about her was the condition of her soul.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As has now been noted above, &#8220;man born of woman&#8221; is a Semitism meaning nothing more or less than &#8220;mortal&#8221;/ &#8220;human&#8221;: compare Job 14:1.  In the Vulgate, the phrase in Job is &#8220;homo natus de muliere&#8221; (LXX &#8220;brotos gennetos gunaikos&#8221;).  Nothing turns on the grammatical construction in the Greek or in the Latin (whether simple genitive, or a prepositional phrase).  </p>
<p>Compare what the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed asserts of Our Lord: &#8220;ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula . .  genitum non factum&#8221;.  And in the Apostles&#8217; Creed we have &#8220;natus ex Maria vergine&#8221;.  Our Lord, born of the Father before all time (natus/ genitus/ gennetos) was, in His passible existence, &#8220;born of a woman&#8221; and was mortal &#8211; like us in all things except sin.</p>
<p>Speculation that some subtlety resides in St. Matthew&#8217;s use of the word &#8220;gennetos&#8221; (Latin equivalent, &#8220;natus&#8221;) only distracts from the focus of the passage in Mt.11:7-19 which is a straightforward rebuke of contemporary popular attitudes to John the Baptist and to Our Lord Himself.  The passage begins with the words &#8220;Jesus began to speak to the crowds about John . . .&#8221; (Mt.11:7).  It is highly unlikely that any technical use of terms is involved here.</p>
<p>As for Our Lady, Peregrinus cannot have intended to say that her conception was  UNlike any other &#8211; in particular in &#8220;how it came about&#8221; (if, by that, is meant the sexual physiology). She was conceived and born in the order of nature &#8211; although conceived without the stain of original sin. What was different about her was the condition of her soul.</p>
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		<title>By: Peregrinus</title>
		<link>http://ericsammons.com/blog/2010/03/08/is-john-the-baptist-greater-than-mary/comment-page-1/#comment-8771</link>
		<dc:creator>Peregrinus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 21:39:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ericsammons.com/blog/?p=7501#comment-8771</guid>
		<description>Perhaps I am reaching in the case of Mary. I would point out, nonetheless, that the description of the conception of Mary as “conceived with men and born of women” is incomplete and, therefore, inaccurate. Remember that Mary is immaculate “at the first moment of her conception” (&quot;&lt;i&gt;in primo instanti suae conceptionis&lt;/i&gt;&quot;). Her conception was, in fact, unlike any other in how it came about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps I am reaching in the case of Mary. I would point out, nonetheless, that the description of the conception of Mary as “conceived with men and born of women” is incomplete and, therefore, inaccurate. Remember that Mary is immaculate “at the first moment of her conception” (&#8221;<i>in primo instanti suae conceptionis</i>&#8220;). Her conception was, in fact, unlike any other in how it came about.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Sammons</title>
		<link>http://ericsammons.com/blog/2010/03/08/is-john-the-baptist-greater-than-mary/comment-page-1/#comment-8768</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Sammons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:43:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ericsammons.com/blog/?p=7501#comment-8768</guid>
		<description>Peregrinus,

I&#039;m still not convinced that this statement was anything more than a hyperbole intended to compare and contrast the Old and New Covenants, but I agree that it is possible that the original Greek might preclude Jesus from the equation. 

But I would still argue that Mary falls into the category of &quot;conceived with men and born of women&quot;. Yes, her conception was unique in that it didn&#039;t include Original Sin, but it was still a conception like any other in how it came about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peregrinus,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m still not convinced that this statement was anything more than a hyperbole intended to compare and contrast the Old and New Covenants, but I agree that it is possible that the original Greek might preclude Jesus from the equation. </p>
<p>But I would still argue that Mary falls into the category of &#8220;conceived with men and born of women&#8221;. Yes, her conception was unique in that it didn&#8217;t include Original Sin, but it was still a conception like any other in how it came about.</p>
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		<title>By: Peregrinus</title>
		<link>http://ericsammons.com/blog/2010/03/08/is-john-the-baptist-greater-than-mary/comment-page-1/#comment-8767</link>
		<dc:creator>Peregrinus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:35:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ericsammons.com/blog/?p=7501#comment-8767</guid>
		<description>Your explanation of the Greek words, Eric, seems to indicate that Jesus meant something very specific with the phrase “those born of women” in Matt. 11:11; namely those both conceived with men and born of women. He excludes both His mother and Himself from the comparison with John the Baptist for an obvious reason by using a special term here. 

I am, of course, relying on the precision of both your lexica and the Greek to reach this conclusion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your explanation of the Greek words, Eric, seems to indicate that Jesus meant something very specific with the phrase “those born of women” in Matt. 11:11; namely those both conceived with men and born of women. He excludes both His mother and Himself from the comparison with John the Baptist for an obvious reason by using a special term here. </p>
<p>I am, of course, relying on the precision of both your lexica and the Greek to reach this conclusion.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://ericsammons.com/blog/2010/03/08/is-john-the-baptist-greater-than-mary/comment-page-1/#comment-8765</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:15:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ericsammons.com/blog/?p=7501#comment-8765</guid>
		<description>I must point out that I wrote &quot;If Mary made it to the KINGDOM&quot; not HEAVEN. The kingdom is more than heaven - it is all the baptized, all the believers - through every generation, through all time. It is the Church Suffering (Purgatory), the Church Militant (in this life), the Church Triumphant (Heaven). Look a few verses above - verses 2 &amp; 3 - John was still alive and doubtful, wondering if Jesus was the one he was preparing for. Mary was in the kingdom from the moment she said, &quot;Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.&quot; She surrendered herself utterly to Christ before he was even born. Folks, we&#039;re all Catholics, we KNOW this stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must point out that I wrote &#8220;If Mary made it to the KINGDOM&#8221; not HEAVEN. The kingdom is more than heaven &#8211; it is all the baptized, all the believers &#8211; through every generation, through all time. It is the Church Suffering (Purgatory), the Church Militant (in this life), the Church Triumphant (Heaven). Look a few verses above &#8211; verses 2 &amp; 3 &#8211; John was still alive and doubtful, wondering if Jesus was the one he was preparing for. Mary was in the kingdom from the moment she said, &#8220;Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.&#8221; She surrendered herself utterly to Christ before he was even born. Folks, we&#8217;re all Catholics, we KNOW this stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Sammons</title>
		<link>http://ericsammons.com/blog/2010/03/08/is-john-the-baptist-greater-than-mary/comment-page-1/#comment-8763</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Sammons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 19:14:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ericsammons.com/blog/?p=7501#comment-8763</guid>
		<description>Peregrinus,

Matthew 11:11 uses the term &quot;γεννητοις&quot;, which is a form of the word &quot;γενναω&quot;, and is the only place this word (in this form) is found in the New Testament. &quot;γενναω&quot; means &quot;begetting&quot; of the father and the &quot;bearing&quot; of the mother. According to Kittel, the form used in Matthew 11:11 is a common Jewish expression which &quot;denotes men a distinct from angels and God, i.e. as earthly creatures.&quot;

Galatians 4:4 uses the term &quot;γενομενον&quot;, which is a form of &quot;γινομαι&quot;, which simply means to &quot;be born&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peregrinus,</p>
<p>Matthew 11:11 uses the term &#8220;γεννητοις&#8221;, which is a form of the word &#8220;γενναω&#8221;, and is the only place this word (in this form) is found in the New Testament. &#8220;γενναω&#8221; means &#8220;begetting&#8221; of the father and the &#8220;bearing&#8221; of the mother. According to Kittel, the form used in Matthew 11:11 is a common Jewish expression which &#8220;denotes men a distinct from angels and God, i.e. as earthly creatures.&#8221;</p>
<p>Galatians 4:4 uses the term &#8220;γενομενον&#8221;, which is a form of &#8220;γινομαι&#8221;, which simply means to &#8220;be born&#8221;.</p>
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